Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: Foreign.
[00:00:10] Speaker B: Therapy Podcast sponsored by Zest for Life Counseling in American Fork, Utah. We are your hosts, Courtney Doman, AMFT and Celeste Webster, MSWI back with part two of our Voices in the Field with Rich Reynolds over ifs.
Just as a disclaimer, while we are therapists, we are not your therapists. This podcast is intended for information and entertainment purposes only. It does not constitute therapy, clinical supervision, or medical advice. Opinions expressed are our own and subject to change as research evolves. We do our best, but we're human and that means we may make mistakes. Okay, let's pick up where we left off.
[00:00:48] Speaker C: So like, with ifs, would you say that it's similar to like inner child work? Like what is your experience there?
[00:00:57] Speaker A: Yeah, I think there's a lot of overlap between kind of the, I guess kind of the spirit of it in a way. Right. That relationship between self and parts, I think is very similar to the dynamic that's getting looked at from like a reparenting your inner child, you know, like I think what you know, and there are pros and cons to this, but with ifs, I think it just breaks it down more. Right? There's just, it's more specific, it's more. So where with inner child? Well, and I don't know, I, I'm not as familiar with all of the ways people do inner child work, but as I've understood it, it's more like that you just have one inner child. Right. Where ifs is more like you have inner children. Right.
Lots of, lots of different parts.
Understanding that there's all these different again that there's like kind of roles that parts have in the system inside and, and things like that which bring some complexity but I think in some ways also brings more kind of clarity and more accuracy, more specificity.
[00:02:09] Speaker B: For sure. I, yeah, I love that a lot because with, with ifs, you're not necessarily tied into. Okay, here's the earlier version of myself that experienced the most pain or didn't have their needs met. Oftentimes when I'm mapping parts with people, they'll, we'll talk about all these different parts, all these different roles. Then we start getting to more of the wounded parts. And I've seen more like the earlier versions of themselves in the, the wounded parts.
I feel like rarely.
Well, maybe no, some protectors too where like. But I think that's where they start to get identified more. But it's like, okay, yes, there's you know, this five year old version of me. There's this teenage version of me. There's the. The, you know, self that, you know, was in school and was bullied. And now every time I'm in a work situation, then I feel left out, that that's the wounded part that comes up. And so there's just more options for people to recognize. I think maybe parts of them that are stuck or holding some of that, like, pain or holding that role rather than just doing one. But, yeah, I just think it's like.
[00:03:25] Speaker C: More.
[00:03:28] Speaker B: I guess, like, what am I. What I'm trying to think of, like, space to go forward. Like, it's not.
[00:03:33] Speaker A: Not.
[00:03:33] Speaker B: You're not tied down. There's always more things you could look for, see, or explore with that.
[00:03:39] Speaker A: Yeah, well. And I don't know, like, with ifs, I think one of the things that also feels really helpful to me is, like, how you solve the problem of, like, trying to describe the inner conflicts with the word I. Right. The. Okay, I don't want to quit, but I also, like, I don't want to quit smoking, but I do want to quit smoking. It's like, well, who's the eye that wants both of those things? And that's. That's weird. And, you know, that feels crazy. And it's not very insightful. Right. That's not very useful. It's like, okay, I do and I don't, but to be able to. And I think you run into the same problem with an inner child. Right. Of the inner child is all of these things.
That's just something I really love about ifs is that that inner child doesn't have to have that eye problem either. It's not that the one. One entity inside has all of the stuff that it feels and wants to do and doesn't want to do. It's like, no, there's.
There's lots of different parts that do all these things for reasons that make sense, and they disagree about stuff and they fight and. But there's so much clarity that comes from understanding. Oh. Like that dynamic of one part does and one part doesn't, and both of those parts can make sense.
And then as your true self, being able to negotiate a new solution with those parts when they all make sense anyway. So I think that's one thing where I think ifs really shines again is just. It really helps you get deep, deep clarity about a lot anything, like, just more specific. There's just more insight. There's more to understand.
And we can slice it thinner and be like, oh, there are these different parts. And that's. Anyway.
[00:05:24] Speaker B: Yeah, right.
[00:05:25] Speaker C: Yeah, like As a new clinician, it brings, like, to mind. Okay, then how do you get clients to start engaging with these inner parts? Like, we've introduced the idea, and maybe they're like, okay, like, you want me to talk to myself? Like. Like, how do you get them to engage with them. Their parts, I guess.
And we.
[00:05:43] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah.
[00:05:45] Speaker B: When we had an interesting question was that last week where someone was like, is this, like, did. Is this, like, dissociated? I do have multiple personalities, so kind of speaking to, like, some of the, like, resistance or, like, uncertainty or kind of confusion that comes with introducing.
[00:06:04] Speaker A: I guess. Yeah.
Well, okay, so I think there's two questions there. One is, how do we do this work? How do you introduce this? How do you start doing it? And the other is, what do you do if there is that resistance in that sense of, like, this is weird. I don't like this.
Am I, you know, am I talking to myself right now? Like, what's it?
So to answer the first question, I think very simply, right? If someone comes into your office and says, oh, here's this problem I have. I.
I can't stop smoking.
And I. I've been trying, but I'm really frustrated. But then there's. I just. Just every day I still just go buy another pack of cigarettes and whatever, right? Then as a therapist, I'd say something like, okay, so it sounds like there's one part of you that, like, super duper hates smoking and wants to quit and has wanted to quit for a long time. But then there's this other part of you that still is just going into the gas station every day, like, getting that, right? And they say, yeah. And then.
So, I mean, the way Richard Schwartz would do this, the guy who. Who started ifs, is without any other, like, explanation or anything.
[00:07:14] Speaker B: He would say, go for it.
[00:07:16] Speaker A: When is there one of those parts that you're more curious about right now?
And they'd say, oh, I'm curious about the one that wants to keep smoke one, you know, okay. And then you just dive into.
In ifs, we call this success. But you're just trying to kind of flesh out, like, who is this part? So, like, okay, what.
What does that part look like? That part of you that wants to go get cigarettes and you just start asking those questions. And then once you have some idea of, like, kind of what this part looks like or maybe where they feel that part in their body and it's.
You start saying, okay, maybe ask that part if it's okay with you getting to know them a Little bit better right now.
And you just start to get into that dialogue of, yeah, is it okay that we talk here? And anyway, so it is just kind of like a. You introduce that parts language.
So people tell you their problems, you say it back in parts, and then just introduce this possibility of, like, well, we could get to know that part of you. Would that interest you?
Yeah. Yeah.
[00:08:18] Speaker B: And something that I think you touched on that I feel like other models do.
Like, and maybe. Maybe we're just taught this. I can't think of a specific model, but, like, kind of getting permission.
I'm thinking of, like, the only other time I was really taught to do that is when you're doing challenges. Like. Like, can I say something kind of difficult? Or is it okay if I push you here?
But I feel like ifs kind of takes that to a new level where you're getting permission from your parts. When I'm thinking of, like, some other models that might do some of that permission getting, there's also an element of, like, you're wanting to expose the person or you're wanting to, like, help the person, like, go deeper, and you're just doing it where ifs is like.
Or often saying, is, is that. Is that part okay? If we ask more questions about it? Is that part okay, stepping back so we can get to know this part you're really curious about?
[00:09:16] Speaker C: Is.
[00:09:17] Speaker B: Is that part okay with us talking about it right now?
Are there other parts that are not okay with this? And so really acknowledging, I think, giving the client full autonomy to recognize internal parts of them that are not okay with what's happening or parts that, you know, maybe want to bulldoze the situation. And they're like, yep, I'm ready. Tear off all the.
[00:09:38] Speaker C: Tear all.
[00:09:39] Speaker B: Tear all the walls down.
[00:09:40] Speaker A: Tear.
[00:09:41] Speaker B: Tear all the stops down. When, you know, they may have, you know, five or six or however many other parts, they're like, no, no, no, we don't want to talk about this.
[00:09:50] Speaker A: Yes.
Yeah, yeah. Which I think is especially relevant when you start doing any trauma work.
[00:09:56] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:09:57] Speaker A: It really shines with.
You're trying to process trauma, doing parts work.
That permission getting is so huge, I think.
Yeah. Something that I think, honestly, is a little neglected in, like, EMDR and some of the other kind of more popular.
I don't know how art handles that.
[00:10:17] Speaker B: But anyway, yeah, there's. There's kind of like a willing. It's, again, kind of similar. Of like, there's a. A question at the beginning of, like, you know, what have you chosen? How willing are You. And then throughout, like, what do you care to share? But again, kind of this. This perspective of like, hey, this is the agenda. This is what you want to do. We're moving forward with it and checking for any resistance, but not necessarily with, you know, permission getting, per se.
So, yeah, I think ifs does that exceptionally well, which is, yeah, great for modeling, you know, how other people can respect your boundaries. You know, if you are a client and you've experienced trauma, like in that relational healing, but also that inner healing of, you know, I can also respect my own boundaries and I can also get permission from myself.
[00:11:05] Speaker A: Yep. And it creates so much emotional safety with your clients. I think that's something that I have also really learned to love about it. Like when I'm doing that permission getting and.
And all that, clients feel safe so fast when. Because you're always honoring the no's. Right. Anytime there. There's a part that's like, no, I don't want to talk about that.
[00:11:29] Speaker B: You're like, okay, you're like, great, yeah, easy.
[00:11:35] Speaker A: Move on. Or. Or, yeah, can we learn more about. What's that concern there? What does that part afraid will happen if we do talk about it? And then there's just always that sense of, yeah, boundaries are being respected and. And then it. When the yeses finally come, it's so powerful. Like, what happens in therapy when parts start saying, yes, yes, you can come inside. Yes, you can get to know that really scary part. Yes, we can go to the trauma and heal it because they trust self to do it. That's. That's a very, very different thing. So anyway, that's very cool.
[00:12:09] Speaker C: Yeah. Yeah.
So we kind of touched a little bit on resistance, but mostly maybe with parts. What about maybe the resistance on the. With the stigma that might come with ifs, Whether they think, you know, am I talking to myself or whatever. Right. What about that?
[00:12:27] Speaker A: Yeah, it's.
I mean, ifs is like anything. It's not for everyone.
You certainly have those moments where some clients just really.
I mean, I was meeting with a client today that we were actually a new client, where this was kind of coming up a little bit of trying to get to know part. But for me, I think there's a few things, like, I like to just talk about that directly with my clients about, you know, if it is the DID thing.
Being able to just address like, yeah, this does kind of feel like that, because there's a sense in which DID is just a really extreme version of what all of us are doing all the time anyway. And just trying to normalize. Like, yeah, we all do have different parts of us.
And the difference between DID and this kind of normal or healthier version of it is in did, no parts know about each other. There's, like, no awareness. There's no and.
And on that sort of thing. And so again, we kind of like, normalize, like, yep, that's. And IFS is effective therapy for did.
[00:13:39] Speaker B: Right.
[00:13:39] Speaker A: So we, we, I, I, we'll just address that head on with people, if that's the concern. It's pretty rare that that is the concern in my experience.
So that's the DID thing. I think more often what's actually going on is that you are breaking the rules of the system by trying to go inside it all.
And I think as the therapist, what I'm trying to get in that moment is the message from the system that they're kind of saying, back off, right when they're like, this is uncomfortable. I don't like this. And that's what I just did in my session earlier today, was just kind of acknowledging, like, well, yeah, that makes sense. We're, we're trying to do something that feels uncomfortable and off limits a little bit. And, and that, to me is like, great, then we can work with that again, do this thing that IFS is so good at of going slow and getting permission and acknowledging the resistance is real and valid and fair and that we're not going to just bulldoze it around inside.
And so I think being able to kind of acknowledge that as part of what's going on is really helpful. And again, I think between those two things, the vast majority of the time, clients are fine with it.
I mean, I brought dude ifest in, like, 90% of my sessions, probably. Yeah, because everyone's, everyone's fine with that, as long as it's kind of clear what we're doing and that I'm not going to push too hard or anything, but.
[00:15:15] Speaker B: And I, yeah, I feel like parts work is really approachable.
You know, you can, like, really fully dive into ifs, but even just testing the waters with okay, yeah, that you feel like this is. Do you feel like the opposite sometimes you feel differently at other times. Like, there's really. The more I think this probably goes for most models, all models, maybe, but the more confident, like, you are uncomfortable with doing it, the more natural and easy it is.
And so if you're like, yeah, well, tell me about other things or tell me, yeah, okay, well, it sounds like, you know, part of you wants to do this. Part doesn't tell me more about that. It's a pretty easy, like, shoe into a lot of what ifs can provide, which I think is fantastic. So.
[00:16:06] Speaker A: Yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
[00:16:10] Speaker C: Okay. So kind of to close as our audience is mostly new therapists, something we love to ask all the guests that we have on the podcast is what advice would you give to new therapists in the field? So this can be not related to ifs or related to ifs, but what's some advice you'd give to new therapists?
[00:16:30] Speaker A: Wow. Yeah. There's so much.
[00:16:34] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:16:35] Speaker A: What's the short version?
I think one thing that I would say is I think it's really tempting as a new therapist to feel like the way to be a better therapist is to just learn more stuff.
Right. We all want to go get trained in all the things and all the things and.
And I think there's value in that. I'm not saying don't go get trained in things, but it is, I think, really helpful to do more self reflection and kind of self the therapist work around seeing what's valuable about the work that you're doing independent of a model and what's valuable about you as a human being sitting in the room with people in.
In whatever way you can when their life is full of pain and suffering and they're bringing all these unimaginable problems into you, into the room with you. And, and I think that's it's.
It's easy to run away from how scary all of that is by learning stuff. Right. Our thinking parts. Yeah.
Want to go like.
And I think that's something that I would recommend to all new therapists, is to just trust the process a little bit that you're going to be okay with this and learning more information isn't going to save you from having to, like, cross some of those bridges like you. You just have to deal with, like, it is scary. It is terrifying to be in the room with someone who's in so much pain is.
And the more you can just kind of take that head on at the beginning and see it for what it is and lean into it, the better therapy you're going to do, regardless of what models you and specializations and whatever you do down the road. I think just being able to start with that inner work, looking at yourself and looking at what is, what is scary about doing, doing it and working through that with your supervisors and going to therapy if you need to and, you know, whatever.
[00:18:53] Speaker B: But yes, I think that's great advice, like, truly, like, giving space for yourself to do the self work.
Mfts. I think we've talked about this in previous episodes. We call that self of the therapist or person of the therapist.
I think social work kind of leans more on self care, but really giving yourself the space to sit with what you're feeling to realize that there are some things you will never have the answer for.
You know, there are some things in our clients lives that won't change and they can't change and we can't change it for them. And thinking like big things that, that they're going through and how healing it is for you to be there with them, for you to listen, for you to provide, you know, this, you know, unconditional positive regard, this compassion when they can't provide the compassion for themselves and helping them gain those skills. But yeah, I think that's fantastic. Like truly leaning into the work that you do as a therapist is important and that doesn't, I mean, you have to know all the things to do good work.
[00:20:01] Speaker A: Yeah. Yep.
[00:20:03] Speaker C: Definitely, you know, guilty of trying to learn all the things. I feel like all of us are at some point. Right.
[00:20:09] Speaker A: Yep. I did it. I did it for like three years.
Like chasing things.
More books. Always.
[00:20:14] Speaker B: Yeah.
The bookshelf is full.
[00:20:17] Speaker C: It is very full.
Yes.
[00:20:19] Speaker B: Okay.
[00:20:20] Speaker C: So thank you for your advice and thank you for your time in this conversation. It's been a really good conversation and talk about ifs. So I appreciate your time and just want to say thank you as well to all of our Zest for Therapy podcast listeners for joining us today. So if you have thoughts you want to share with us about our topic today, please let us know in our substack. The link will be in our description of this episode where you can give us feedback episode requests and be the first to know when a new episode comes out. So we'll see you next time.
