Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: Foreign.
Welcome back to Zest for Therapy podcast. We are your hosts, Celeste Webster, mswi, and Courtney Dohmen am ft back with another episode, and our topic today is discussing Thunderbolts from a therapy standpoint.
Cole unfortunately is unable to continue with the podcast. We're grateful to have had him as one of our hosts, and if you want to share anything you've learned from him, we'd love if you'd go over your substack and just share some love. Send some love his way. So.
And that's at the Zest for Therapy podcast on substack.
[00:00:39] Speaker B: Okay, so while we are therapists, we are not your therapists. This podcast is intended for information and entertainment purposes only. It does not constitute therapy, clinical supervision, or medical advice. Opinions expressed are our own and subject to change as research evolves. We do our best, but we're human, and that means we may make mistakes.
[00:01:00] Speaker A: That was like, a really good narrator voice.
[00:01:03] Speaker B: Yeah, it's my new third job.
[00:01:05] Speaker A: All right. We should do that narrator voice.
Okay, well, this episode I'm honestly really excited for. It's just a fun one. So as a disclaimer, this will have spoilers for the movie Thunderbolts. For obvious reasons, we're just diving in. So if you haven't seen it and don't want spoilers, don't listen further. Yeah, but if you don't care about spoilers, just continue along.
[00:01:26] Speaker B: It's a great movie. You'll still enjoy. I think you'll still enjoy watching it after.
[00:01:30] Speaker A: Oh, yeah, absolutely. Maybe even a little more. I don't know.
We'll see.
So we'll just give a little bit of a refresher for those that maybe haven't seen it in a minute or maybe not at all. So the film, it's Thunderbolts with an asterisk. And that is because it's like the plot twist. Not really a plot twist, but, like, also marketed as the New Avengers.
So that's why those asterisks are there. And then the plot is basically so a group of morally ambiguous characters.
Yelena, Bucky, the Red Guardian, Ghost, Taskmaster, and the US Agent.
Anyways, they are coerced by Valentina to form a covert team.
So there's a trap. And they're forced to confront their own past internal conflicts and betrayal as they carry out high stakes missions.
And a key twist is that Bob, a new character, is revealed to be the sentry, whose fractured psyche gives rise to the catastrophic alter ego, the Void, which envelops part of New York in supernatural darkness. And forces the team to enter his inner mental landscapes to stop him. So they all have, like, their own little personal shame rooms. It's. It's interesting.
By the end, the Thunderbolts unite through compassion and sacrifice, and Valentina rebrands them publicly as the New Avengers, which is also reflected in the post credit, like, film, you know, of the screen. So, like, the. The New Avengers at the end.
So with that, take it away. Courtney, what are some of your thoughts and takeaways?
[00:03:02] Speaker B: I love your intro also, if you, like, haven't seen it, those were spoilers.
[00:03:07] Speaker A: So, yeah, that's the movie.
[00:03:10] Speaker B: I love this movie so much. I was honestly a little bit like, I don't know. I went to see it in theaters, and I used to really love Marvel movies and, like, watch all of them as they came out. And I feel like I was kind of falling off of the bandwagon a little bit where movies had come out and I was like, oh, it just doesn't seem like that important that I go see this.
[00:03:31] Speaker A: Same.
[00:03:33] Speaker B: But I have a couple of friends who are therapists, and they're like, no, this is a good movie. Like, it's a good movie. You should go see it. So one of the things I want to start off with is Yelena. So she's kind of like our.
Like, the movie is about her essentially. Like, we have all these other characters, but we see so much more from, like, her perspective.
I don't know. I just think this movie does a really good job of making people who.
Oh, and we joked about this when we watched the movie together, but all of them would probably be in jail. Like, they would probably not be roaming free or maybe, you know, it's a unique situation because of, you know, the world that's created in.
In the Avengers world, where people can kill multiple people, but then if they are a superhero, then it's like, okay, no, we need them to, like, protect us.
[00:04:30] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:04:31] Speaker B: But I feel like the movie does a really great job at, like, painting how complex characters can be be.
Because Yelena is so relatable in the fact that she is struggling and she's struggling with things that she's done in the past that she's not okay with. And at one point in the movie, her dad. I'm putting dad in air quotes. You can't see it. Yeah.
The Red Guardian is talking to her, and he's like, we all have things that we struggle with. And she's like, but I have so much.
It's like, I just have so much. Everybody else has stuff sure. Like, we're all. We've all been shady, secret government agents, but, like, I have so much because even from a kid, she's been trained to be this assassin.
But starting out, you kind of get to see her when she's, you know, doing her job and she's talking about it like it's every other job. And she's like, oh, then they're gonna. Then they're gonna try to shoot me, and then I'm gonna shoot them. And then, you know, it's like nothing, you know, brings me any fulfillment anymore.
[00:05:38] Speaker A: Go home.
[00:05:39] Speaker B: I cry, I cry, I. I drink, I cry, I get up, I go to work.
[00:05:44] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:05:45] Speaker B: And she has such a unique job, but that's so relatable. Like, it doesn't really matter what your job is. You can end up in a place like that.
And I love that quote at the beginning where she's talking to the Red Garden. She's like, I thought work was the answer, but I'm not happy.
And then they're talking about, like, the family business, and she's like, are you. Like, do you feel fulfilled? And he's like, oh, yes, so full, so filled.
[00:06:10] Speaker A: Favorite line.
[00:06:11] Speaker B: Yes. And then later on, he's like, I lied. Like, I lied. I'm not like, I need a job. Like, I'm not happy or fulfilled either.
So that's kind of the starting stage for, like, where these characters are at.
[00:06:27] Speaker A: Yeah, it's so interesting too, because I feel like with both of their jobs, if with air quotes, is like, it's such high intensity, and their whole life has been high intensity. That, like, him as the dad, the Red Guardian, just running a limo business, he's like, I'm. I'm so bored. I need more.
So, I don't know. Speaks to some things there, for sure.
[00:06:50] Speaker B: And also in that same interaction, if we're looking at this from, like an act lens, like, she.
He. So she's talking about, like, losing her sister. And he's like, well, your sister understood that, like, what it means to be a hero, basically. Like, to. To put your efforts into something good and meaningful and, like, stand for something. And then later she's like, you know what? Like, I think I need that, like, the purpose part of it where it's not. She's like, I want something public facing, something that I can, like, really be proud of.
I think that also hits on having things in your life that you can be proud of is that align with your values. Because she doesn't necessarily want to be doing this anymore. And so you can start to see her want to make those changes.
Obviously, like, Valentina is like, sure, yeah. And then sets them up to be killed.
[00:07:43] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:07:44] Speaker B: It's a whole thing.
Yeah. So you almost just see the struggle between who she thinks she is narrative, like a story that she's telling herself, and also where she wants to be. Be with her values, act.
But also, Valentina is super interesting. Even if you were to look at this for, like, from an ifs lens of maybe Valentina is like, the. The part of you that doesn't believe in you, but Valentina is very much like. She's like. She even says, these are defective losers. Like, I honestly cannot think of a worse group of people to, like, team up with each other. And then the. Her assistant agent person is like, well, they're working together. And she's like, you know, she's just reinforcing this narrative that they aren't worth anything, that they're throw awayable. And you see them kind of, like, struggle with their own beliefs with that. Because I think at some point they all believe that they're throwawayable, and then they kind of shift to something more solid or, you know, there for each other. So if we can be there for each other, maybe we'd be there for ourselves.
Mm.
Which I really like.
[00:08:48] Speaker A: Yeah. Honestly, that makes me think of just the dynamics of individuals within the same experience having such very different experiences. So, like, while they all have different backgrounds that got them to this negative and poor.
Maybe not. Right. Core belief of I am worthless. I'm throw away able. You know, I just. This is me, and I just don't really matter. Like, however they got to that belief, they all respond to that belief very differently.
[00:09:18] Speaker B: That's a really good point.
[00:09:21] Speaker A: What's his name? Walker.
[00:09:22] Speaker B: Walker.
[00:09:23] Speaker A: He's just so abrasive, and he's just like, no, I matter. And he's, like, almost trying to convince himself of that and then, like, rub it in everybody else's face, and he's, like, in such denial about it, you know? And then on the other side, y is like, yeah, well, this is. We are. We are the ro. She's kind of accepted that and just like, you know.
[00:09:42] Speaker B: Yeah. It's interesting to see everybody's response internalize that.
[00:09:45] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:09:46] Speaker B: Because right when Walker is figuring out that they've been set up, he's like, no, no, I wouldn't be set up. She wouldn't do that.
[00:09:53] Speaker A: That timer's not for the incinerator. It's for the extraction team.
[00:09:56] Speaker B: Yeah.
Like, just. Yeah. Almost a sense of, like, denial. Of, like, yeah, no, that can't be.
And that's a really good point, because Bob does the same thing later, and we learn a lot about his. His history where he's like, just leave me.
Just leave me behind.
You don't have to take me up there with you.
[00:10:15] Speaker A: You guys will be better off without me.
[00:10:17] Speaker B: You're better off without me. And Yelena is like, bob, like, no. And then he's like, no, it's fine. And then you also see him kind of struggle with wanting purpose. Of like, no, I can help. I think I can help. And when Yelena's like, no, Bob, like, stay behind me. Stay behind me. You can see he's wanting so badly to be validated or have value or seen that he has value by other people. And that shows up later where Valentina uses that to manipulate him.
[00:10:47] Speaker A: Yeah. Honestly. Oh, there's so many depths. There's so many different characters.
I don't even know where we want to, like, even if we just continue with Yelena. Yeah. Like, one of my favorite parts with her was when she was in the shame rooms, and she steps in front of her younger self from, like, seeing this trauma again, you know, and so, like, protecting her younger self. That made me think of lifespan integration, where. So it's like, we step into our story as a younger self. Well, of our younger self as an older self and just be what we needed then.
And there's something so beautiful about that, you know, and the movie the Kid. I don't. That's a whole nother topic, but that's literally life span integration. I feel like we're just stepping in. In all these different phases of life as the person that we need.
[00:11:28] Speaker B: Right. And you can see her struggle, even when she's the kid, of, like, oh, if. If I do well, I won't get hurt, but that means all of my other people that I care about will get hurt. And so part of that trauma is not just what's happening to me. It's what's happening, happening to other people. And so Yelena stepping in to, like, prevent her younger self from having to experience that again. I think also from, like, an IFS perspective of, like, she's the self. Like, she has that younger version of her that's hurting, that's holding all those memories, but the self can handle it. Even later when she's in the second shame room where she's drinking.
[00:12:05] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:12:06] Speaker B: Almost to, like, a point of self harm kind of trying for sure.
[00:12:10] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:12:10] Speaker B: You know.
[00:12:11] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:12:11] Speaker B: Where that part tries to Drown the current. Yelena. That part, like, took over and she had to, like, fight it off. So just a lot of, like, ifs perspectives, too, of how. If we're talking about that would be a firefighter to get drunk, shut everything down.
[00:12:25] Speaker A: Yeah. No.
[00:12:26] Speaker B: Where, you know, people often, like, are more okay with their managers. Usually where they're like, no, this is helpful. And they're like, oh, yeah. Well, it does criticize me all the time. And. Well, it does, like, do this this or that. Or firefighters are very much like, yep, this is problem. Like, this is the problem. But recognizing. No, that part's actually trying to help you. Like, the reason that that part or that older version of younger version of her was trying to drown her was like, I know how much pain you're in. Let's just turn it off. But she's able to realize, no, I need to be here. Like, there's more important things than shutting off my pain right now.
[00:13:00] Speaker A: Yeah. Honestly. And I think it's just interesting to be able to see, like, okay, how can we then. I don't know. Just like, even watching this movie as somebody that's, like, struggling with different versions of our. That we don't like, I feel like movies are so powerful. They really just bring in all the emotions. It's like, your homework this week is to watch Thunderbolts. Right.
[00:13:22] Speaker B: Do that with inside out, too.
[00:13:23] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:13:23] Speaker B: Like, your homework this week is to realize, you know, how some of these things can apply to you.
[00:13:29] Speaker A: I feel like when we talk about self talk as well, I feel like that's a huge theme in this movie when we think about.
[00:13:34] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:13:34] Speaker A: Like, especially. Especially Bob and the Void. Just like the negative self talk that really just buries us alive. That's another thing that really stuck out to me was there's really power to that. Negative power, but there's power to that.
[00:13:46] Speaker B: And it's almost like in a. I don't know if listless is the right word, but he's just like, oh, this is the best room. Nothing's gonna change. We're all stuck here. And you can see from, like, from those shame rooms how he's coping with this. But you also see some of his trauma where if he tried to stand up, he would be abused.
And so almost seeing more of that in Bob of. And then also the void later of, like, how the void speaks to Bob is really similar to how, if I'm remembering right, how his dad spoke to him of, like, like, oh, the hero. You're not going to do anything. Like, you're not. You think you're going to be able to do this? No. Like, don't just sit down. Don't do anything. Right. So Bob is kind of internalized. Okay. I don't fight back. I'm just gonna let this happen. And the void is kind of taken over that part of like beating him up. And what the void wants is like, to turn Bob into the void.
[00:14:42] Speaker A: Yeah. The part where he is like, at the very end of all the shame rooms and he found the void and he's just like, kind of sick of it. And he just like kind of lays into the void. He's just like on top of him and just like punching him. But we see that the void is like slowly taking that power from him because of that. Like, he's slowly turning into the void in a way.
[00:15:02] Speaker B: And the void is happy.
[00:15:03] Speaker A: Yeah, the void is super happy with that. And so I just think it's. If we think of, like, act again, like, act. It's like we have these coping skills sometimes to deal with all these negative things that we tell about ourselves, but some of them aren't right.
Some of them lean into it to the point where it actually kind of takes. Yeah, it contributes to the problem. It takes over. So.
[00:15:23] Speaker B: And I see that a lot with. Honestly. Yeah. People who feel like they can't let go of negative self talk or cognitive distortions or. Or these manager parts, you know, whatever modality you want to use, a lot of it is same overlap.
[00:15:40] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:15:40] Speaker B: Yeah. Where they can't let go of those things because they feel like they won't amount to anything if they do. Like, they believed that shaming themselves or guilting themselves or criticizing themselves is how they've accomplished what they've accomplished.
And if they give that up, then they won't get where they want to go. Or a lot. A lot of people will be like, oh, I don't want to tell myself something that's not true. I'm like, you're already doing that.
You are already telling yourself something that is not, not true by telling yourself you have no value or telling yourself that you're not good enough if you don't do this list of 20 things.
And so even, like helping people realize that they're trying to solve their problem by doing the opposite of what they need. Oftentimes parts will do that too. Where like, a part wants to save you from pain, it might put you in more pain by doing that. Swear, Bob is like, I need to beat up the void to finally get it out of my life. It's like, no, it actually, like, you need to hug. Like, you need to realize that you deserved to be protected and you deserved somebody to step in for you. Somebody to tell you you don't have to beat yourself up anymore. I love that part where Yelena is the first to get to him and like pull him away. And I think deep down there's like a desire for a lot of people to have somebody come into their life and pull them out of the cycle that they're in.
And a lot of that is like, people can do that for you and, and also learn you can do that for yourself.
[00:17:09] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:17:09] Speaker B: Like you can go into your own internal world and realize you don't have to do that to yourself anymore and pull yourself out of that cycle. So I loved that, like just the imagery of it all, like fighting so hard to, to get to him, to tell him that he doesn't have to do that.
[00:17:25] Speaker A: Yeah, for sure. I feel like our culture is very much like individualistic and so it's like, oh, we gotta be able to fight it out ourselves. And while maybe a deep part of us wants somebody to pull us out of it, like, we would never initiate that because maybe not never, but like, it's really hard for us to initiate that because we're like, no, I gotta be able to do this myself. Like, I'm weak if I have to rely on somebody else or seek for that help somewhere else. And really, at the end of the day, we all need community.
[00:17:49] Speaker B: We're.
[00:17:50] Speaker A: We're very community based people. We're human and so we're wired for connection. So anyways, it's just interesting. It's really cool piece of that movie where it's just like, that's a big focus. We need each other.
We're going to rely on each other.
[00:18:04] Speaker B: Yeah. And that can be like a friend. That can be your therapist, that can be yourself, that can be the coping skills that you learn in therapy. That can be something good happened. Okay. I'm going to use that opportunity to lean into the good, not to recognize that the bad things, the hard things didn't happen. They did.
But I think getting to a place of recognizing, like there can be more than the life that you're living now. And I think that's super powerful.
Superpower.
[00:18:35] Speaker A: Yeah. Adding to that before you jump into it. Next thought. But I think isolating ourselves and just, we have to do this on our own, just like tough it out, really. At the end of the day, there's so much more power in being able to be vulnerable and say, no, this is actually where I'm struggling. And then there creates a community in that feel like our knee jerk reaction is to pull in and just like not show those maybe ugly parts or share those vulnerable parts because we're afraid that that connection will leave if we share it. But in reality, the opposite sometimes often happens where it's like we share it and it's like, oh, wait, we created and found this whole community of people that are also struggling, that are also.
That they're going to be here even if they haven't fully experienced this kind of thing as well.
Anyways.
[00:19:25] Speaker B: No, that makes sense. And I feel like that Bob kind of paints the picture of, of where he could have done that, but also why he didn't. Like back when he first meets everybody and he's like, just leave me. I'm not. Just leave me behind. But then later he's like, I can help, I can help.
You know, that could have been an opportunity for him to be like, hey, no, like I want to contribute. I want to feel like I'm a part of this. Like, I have value.
You know, for him to speak up, you know, if there's, you know, more context or, or things like that. For him to be like, Elena, like, give me something to do to like, force her to slow down. Or in the reverse of like, you know, if she had taken a moment to, to see, okay, maybe I'm not including him, but you can also see from his family history why he doesn't do that. Like, him speaking up has gotten bad results before.
And so a lot of work, like especially relational work, is helping them have a new experience or have a corrective experience.
EFT calls that like you're mapping a new dance and then you want them to experience the new dance in session where I'm helping you guys have the type of conversation that you want to be having. And we can have that now where you can both speak up about what internal wounds are being hit and why that's coming out the way that it is, because that's going to be different, typically than what you're already doing.
What you're doing is getting abrasive, raising your voice, getting irritated, shutting down, leaving the room.
And then that hits on your partner's wounds, you know, being abandoned or, you know, whatever the wound is. And then they get mad or they pursue or they ask you a whole bunch of questions and that hits on your wounds. And so kind of just identifying like there were points where I think both of them could have expressed, like, you Were talking about those.
The. The parts of ourselves we don't want to share but to get their needs met.
And that could have changed how vulnerable Bob was later because Valentina tells him all the right things.
She was actually such an interesting character to watch because she knows where the vulnerabilities are, and she exploits them.
[00:21:49] Speaker A: When.
[00:21:50] Speaker B: When they have Bob and she dresses up, she's like, okay, we know he has issues with his parents. Do I look motherly enough?
[00:21:57] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:21:57] Speaker B: Like, she knows what the wound is, and she attempts to fill it for her own self. Game.
[00:22:05] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:22:06] Speaker B: Telling him that he's wonderful. She knows all the bad things about him, and she still chooses him.
[00:22:13] Speaker A: Yep.
[00:22:14] Speaker B: But she really doesn't care about him at all.
[00:22:16] Speaker A: No.
And, like, the whole.
Where the agent, like, the assistant is like, yeah, he came in to the clinic, and he struggles with thoughts of, like, grandiosity, you know, like, he's this big, powerful, like, guy. Maybe not all the time, but, like.
[00:22:33] Speaker B: But sometimes.
[00:22:34] Speaker A: Yeah. And so she, like, leans into that as well, just like, you are perfect. You are, you know, amazing. Like, just really. Just playing into that to gain some kind of trust and some kind of power there over him.
[00:22:48] Speaker B: And some. And some control, too, because she's.
[00:22:53] Speaker A: I don't know.
[00:22:53] Speaker B: I just think it did a great job at kind of painting a picture of how people alienate people from their friends. Because she goes. And she's like, those aren't your friends. They said that you couldn't do it, but I think you're wonderful. Like, they. They did all these things. They didn't. Blah, blah, blah, blah. Putting, you know, kind of just twisting it into a way that separates him from his newfound friends. And then later on, she's like, no, we have to. We have to eliminate them. And he was like, well, why do I have to do that? And she's like, bob, you have to do what I say. And he's like, why do I have to do what you say?
[00:23:28] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:23:29] Speaker B: And so that's also, like, a unique moment where he puts the pieces together that, like, she's doing these things to control him, but then immediately reverts back to. I don't know. Well, maybe, you know, maybe that wasn't right. Well, maybe I should have just had more say over, like, the hair stuff or this stuff.
[00:23:46] Speaker A: This.
[00:23:47] Speaker B: You know, see him, he's trying to, like, get out of this, and then he falls back into questioning himself. And that gives Valentina the opportunity to be like, they're just getting in your head. They're just getting in your head. You Know have a window where she can try to manipulate him again.
[00:24:01] Speaker A: Right. Yeah. She's something else.
So many strong opinions, but.
[00:24:07] Speaker B: And we also see her trauma, too.
[00:24:09] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:24:10] Speaker B: So unique.
[00:24:11] Speaker A: Yeah. It's interesting to see how people go different paths with their trauma. For sure.
So.
[00:24:17] Speaker B: And once she sees that, you can tell she is kind of. She needs a miss. She's like, I think I need a minute. And she goes to leave, and she picks up the little belt buckle or.
[00:24:28] Speaker A: Symbol or whatever it is, and then.
[00:24:30] Speaker B: Bob can see the person who is just validating him, just telling him that he's great and that she would accept him as leaving, and he's like, no, wait. Like, I can control it. I won't do that thing that I just did. So that's a super interesting dynamic there. Just. It just makes so much sense the more you understand about the way people work.
[00:24:49] Speaker A: Yeah. He's, like, finally found somebody to receive the validation he's always wanted. And then as soon as she, like, flips to maybe not give him that validation or just kind of pull away from that, he's like, but wait, no, come back.
[00:25:04] Speaker B: Right?
[00:25:05] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:25:06] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:25:07] Speaker A: Any other thoughts that you have on the movie? Really?
[00:25:10] Speaker B: Yes. I wanted to talk about Yelena's relationship with the Red Guardian.
[00:25:15] Speaker A: Yes. So good.
[00:25:17] Speaker B: So fast.
And maybe for some more context, it talks about this a little bit in the show, but that's not her. Those aren't her actual parents.
[00:25:28] Speaker A: Yeah, right.
[00:25:29] Speaker B: Like, it was just. She was a part of the Red Room, which was like, they take little children and, like, raise them to be assassins.
Then I think it was, like, an undercover op or something like that, where.
[00:25:42] Speaker A: I'm not totally sure they were all agents.
[00:25:44] Speaker B: And then they kind of, like, lived this happy family life for a little bit, even though they weren't really family. Even though they weren't family. And so I love this. I love this relationship because you can see that the dad. I don't even remember what his. His name is other than the Red Guardian.
[00:26:03] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:26:06] Speaker B: It's out of my mind. But you can see where she's like, I'm not your little girl. Like, when she gets mad, she's like, I'm not. Like, we're not even related. Like, this isn't real. And he's like, but it is. It's real because those were the happiest moments of our lives because I care about you because we are family. And I love that dynamic because he's not perfect.
And she even treats him like a dad, where he's, like, driving into the middle of nowhere. And he's like, yelena, don't go into the room. Like, you're gonna get into incinerated.
[00:26:39] Speaker A: She's like, oh, no. Covering her eyes. Like, don't look.
[00:26:42] Speaker B: Like, don't. Don't look at it.
Just the same way that, like, real parents have real faults and that just that their relationship felt so real to me because, yeah, he didn't call her after her sister died. And then he says, it's because I thought you didn't want me. And she's like, I did. I did want you. And just like, you know the realness of that. And I love the vulnerability because I could see easily in day to day life where, you know, one person tries to be vulnerable or they never even get to that point where he's like, well, I didn't call because.
Because you never call me.
Instead of being. Well, I didn't call because I didn't think that you wanted me to call. I didn't think that I was like, enough. And then she's willing to be vulnerable back where she's like, no, I did. I did want that.
And that's just such a healing, like, moment for them because she's obviously having all this emotion. She even says, what was it? Oh, yeah, Valentina is hunting us. We cannot win. Like, you don't see, but I see where she's very much like, this is useless. This. I'm done with all of this. And like, his openness and her openness and the vulnerability, like, brought them both down to a place of like, no, this is real.
Like, you don't have to be related by blood for me to be your dad.
[00:28:05] Speaker A: Right.
[00:28:06] Speaker B: And she kind of like, you know, folds and she's like, yeah, like, I did want this, and I do want this still.
[00:28:13] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:28:13] Speaker B: And I thought that was great.
Such a great example of that.
[00:28:17] Speaker A: Yeah, you can definitely see her resistance to the relationship, but also, like, she caves more often than not to, like, try to bid for that connection.
When she goes to his house when, yeah, she goes, like, they're in the car together and she. He, like, makes the observation, like, that light, it's brighter.
And she's just like, kind of like looks away, but, like, you can tell it hit her. She's like, oh, it is like, I didn't even notice that. And that's like such a classic, I feel like parent just like pointing out, like, well, actually, look at this.
[00:28:55] Speaker B: Look at the big picture.
[00:28:56] Speaker A: You can see it.
[00:28:57] Speaker B: It's working, right? So that is such a parent move to be like, well, you seem happier.
[00:29:03] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:29:05] Speaker B: Yeah. I love that.
[00:29:08] Speaker A: Yeah. They have a really good relationship. I feel like even though they're both imperfect, they're both trying in their own ways, you know, imperfectly.
[00:29:16] Speaker B: Yeah. And, like, how they all come together because. Yeah, they are just quite abrasive and, like, you know, willing to tear each other down and tear themselves down. But the more that they learn about each other, the more that they're there for each other.
Yeah. Just such a good.
Like you were saying, bid for connection. Good examples of maybe why people don't connect initially, but how they can.
[00:29:44] Speaker A: Lots of different ways.
[00:29:44] Speaker B: Like when Walker was, you know, trying to save that girl from getting crushed by the piece of wall, like, everybody was like, oh, we gotta help. We gotta help. There's, like, a clear need that we can meet. And just, like, allowing themselves to care about them. Care about each other in that way.
[00:30:02] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:30:02] Speaker B: And they all went after Yelena into the void.
[00:30:05] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah.
[00:30:06] Speaker B: Like, all of them.
[00:30:07] Speaker A: I remember the first time I watched, I was like, she's gonna be stuck in here by herself with Bob. They're gonna have to figure it out.
But then we see them all coming together, and it was really cool.
But I think it's interesting just to see them all come together for each other in ways that, like, it kind of, like, builds on each other throughout the movie. Like, at first, they all hate each other. Yelena just, like, gives Walker the hardest time. The hardest time.
[00:30:35] Speaker B: And Walker gives Bob the hardest time.
[00:30:38] Speaker A: Yeah.
And then they start learning more about each other, and it's like, oh, sorry about that. You know, like, they kind of adjust. Like, they don't ever, like, outright apologize, but they, like, you can see them adjusting for each other to help each other in better ways rather than, like, oh, let me not say that, because I know it's tricking from your past or whatever. They don't outright say that, but they just adjust, and it's really cool.
[00:31:00] Speaker B: And something with that, too, that I noticed is Walker calls Bob Bobby.
[00:31:06] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:31:06] Speaker B: And his dad, when we go into the shame rooms, Bob's dad called him Bobby.
And so you can just see in their first interactions, like, why they get so abrasive with each other.
And so having that, like, makes sense. And then later on, I think Walker maybe still calls him Bobby, but it's in a very different tone.
[00:31:33] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:31:33] Speaker B: It's very much like, this is a term, like a.
[00:31:36] Speaker A: Of endearment.
[00:31:37] Speaker B: Yeah, a term of endearment.
[00:31:38] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:31:40] Speaker B: And so even just, you know, recognizing some of those parallels of, like, yes, he was super Abrasive and all these things originally. And then using maybe some of that. That same nickname that might have been triggering before, that can be a corrective experience of like, oh, no, this person actually cares about me, or they wouldn't have, you know, come into this void to get me out, or they wouldn't be thinking about, how do we best tell Bob what happens later. You know, I think that's a real change for them, and I think that can be super healing.
You know, maybe it's something like, no, don't call me Bobby. And you're like, okay, no, I respect that. But also, it could be this person cares about me. Like, they're not gonna.
[00:32:23] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. Could be healing in another way as well.
[00:32:27] Speaker B: Right.
[00:32:27] Speaker A: To have Bobby have a different connotation to it.
[00:32:29] Speaker B: Exactly.
[00:32:30] Speaker A: For sure. Yeah.
[00:32:31] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:32:32] Speaker A: I feel like we could talk about this forever.
[00:32:33] Speaker B: I know.
[00:32:34] Speaker A: Okay.
[00:32:35] Speaker B: I love it.
[00:32:36] Speaker A: But any other thoughts that we have to discuss before we kind of close out.
[00:32:40] Speaker B: Oh, those are all my thoughts.
[00:32:42] Speaker A: Yeah. Because like we said, we could go on forever, and I feel like we could watch this movie over and over again with different modalities in mind, different clients that we're working with in mind or whatever it might be and just get so much from it, honestly.
But I think that's really our invitation to you guys. It's just like, watch this movie. It's so good. And maybe if you're a practicing, you know, our audience is therapists, go to it with a different modality and see what you get from that modality and how you might approach things differently because of a different human that's sitting in a chair. Whether that's the Void or whether that's Elena or whether that's. Alexi. Is the name of the Red Guardian.
[00:33:21] Speaker B: Alexi. Yes, yes. But exactly. And I think, too, especially for any, like, young mfts, like, study their dynamics.
Like, how would you map out their relationship dynamics? How would you map out where they get stuck?
Like some of these things that you're going to be doing anyway. I think it's just really nice, just really good practice to be able to see it kind of played out. And you had mentioned, like, group dynamics, too. Like, if, you know, they all showed up to group therapy, what would that be like?
[00:33:58] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:33:58] Speaker B: So I think there's lots of opportunities to use this to further your therapy skills.
[00:34:03] Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely. So many other movies, too, that we can talk about. For sure.
[00:34:07] Speaker B: Goodwill Hunting.
So good.
[00:34:09] Speaker A: Yes. The kid.
[00:34:11] Speaker B: The kid.
[00:34:12] Speaker A: I feel like that one's so good.
[00:34:13] Speaker B: What was also has the person who plays Elena A good day.
[00:34:21] Speaker A: I've seen that one.
[00:34:23] Speaker B: It's probably good.
[00:34:24] Speaker A: Beautiful boy.
[00:34:25] Speaker B: Yeah. Lots, lots of movies that have really good depictions of.
Of life, like real life.
[00:34:34] Speaker A: Right.
[00:34:34] Speaker B: And I think that's always helpful because we're dealing with real life in here.
[00:34:39] Speaker A: Yeah. Honestly, some clips that you can pull from. From those movies, too, like in session, I feel like.
[00:34:45] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:34:46] Speaker A: But anyways, that's our invitation. So much fun, so much chatting. We could go on forever.
[00:34:51] Speaker B: We could.
[00:34:52] Speaker A: But stay tuned for next week. We will have many more topics to discuss. But thanks for tuning in, everybody.
[00:34:59] Speaker B: Yep. And follow us on our sub stack.
[00:35:01] Speaker A: Yes, please do.
