Episode Transcript
[00:00:08] Speaker A: Welcome back to the Zest for Therapy podcast. We are your hosts, Celeste Webster, mswu intern, and Courtney Doman, Amft back with another episode.
Our topic today is shame and guilt, the mask we wear outside of Halloween.
[00:00:23] Speaker B: While we are your therapist. Whoa.
We are not your therapists. This podcast is intended for informational and entertainment purposes only. It does not constitute therapy, clinical supervision, or medical advice. Opinions expressed are our own and subject to change as research evolves. So we do our best, but we're human, and that means we make mistakes, like saying that we're your therapist when we're not.
[00:00:48] Speaker A: That does not constitute a client, patient, relationship therapist. Okay, so today we're going to be talking all about shame. The differences between shame and guilt. Interventions that work well for shame and maybe even how that shows up for us as new therapists.
[00:01:03] Speaker B: Yes. So take it away, Courtney. What is shame and what's the difference between guilt and shame?
[00:01:08] Speaker A: So there's kind of a couple of things my, like, first go to for helping people understand the difference between shame and guilt is shame is kind of this group level experience focused on, like, almost internalized how you feel about yourself and also kind of looking at, like, how other people will think of you. And guilt is this thing that you can have. Unhealthy guilt as well, but typically more like motivating you to align with your values. An individual experience of like, oh, man. Like, let's say if you have a value of being honest and you deceived somebody or you lied, guilt would be like, oh, man. Like, yeah, I don't. I want to do better next time or I don't want to make that same mistake again, but it's okay to make mistakes. Like kind of that guilt. Where shame would be, I'm a horrible person.
What is that person gonna think of me when they find out?
See how there's kind of a shift there?
So that's kind of like my first go to. For just defining the differences between shame and guilt.
[00:02:16] Speaker B: Yeah.
Where shame is like, like Brene says, I am bad and guilt is I did something bad. Kind of just simplifying it down to like, yeah, that's what it is. Kind of. Definitely. Absolutely. Say more about like the group versus individual, though, because sometimes I feel like you can feel shame on an individual level and like, almost isolating a little bit. But say more.
[00:02:38] Speaker A: What do you mean? Yeah. So kind of looking at shame from like a survival bible standpoint or like an origin standpoint of like, before thinking about and the society that we live in in some ways is like, this, but in some ways very much not where you know, you're with your group, you're with your tribe, you're with your people. And if you are kicked out, or I can't think of a better word, but if you're ostracized from that group, that could literally mean life or death for you to be kicked out of that group, especially when you might depend on them for your livelihood or how you eat or all of your, like, social interactions.
And I think sometimes that still shows up maybe with some more intense communities potentially, where maybe that is where you have all of your. Your friends or all of, like, your.
That cults are coming to mind.
But, you know, thinking about historically, like, that has a function.
Shame was a function of keeping you conforming to the group, keeping you accepted by the group.
And part of that was survival.
And now not. Not every place, but I feel like especially the communities that you and I live in, that's not so much in the forefront anymore. Like, if you have something, you know, that potentially you could be ostracized for, there's a lot of other groups that you can fit in with, or there's lots of people that you might have differences of opinions, but you can still be friends and you can still get your needs met and you can still work and you can still essentially know, meet all these needs even if you don't conform to all the societal standards.
[00:04:36] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. I honestly think of teenagers, like, trying to fit in and like, that's like, their world where it's like being socially ostracized in any way is just like life or death in their mind. For sure. We have a little bit of our caveman brain still. A little bit.
[00:04:51] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:04:52] Speaker B: So shifting, like, we know the audience is new therapists. Like, how do we recognize shame in our own skin as therapists? So for me, or in general, like, this might show up as, like, perfectionism or worrying about saying the wrong thing.
[00:05:08] Speaker A: That never happens.
[00:05:09] Speaker B: Just getting cut all the time or.
[00:05:11] Speaker A: Yes, less never worries. Nobody worries, actually, nobody worries.
[00:05:14] Speaker B: Thinking about when we did say something wrong and just like thinking about that forever, like, oh, my gosh, I should have said it this way.
Negative self talk.
Worrying about not being good enough and then masking in a way where it's like trying to almost put on a front of. I know, more like, I'm okay, I'm a professional. Like, I got this. Like, I, you know, setting yourself up on that little pedestal unintentionally, but, like, to try to, like, put that front forward as we feel like, that's what we need to do almost to be like a finger quote, competent therapist, you know?
[00:05:47] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:05:47] Speaker B: Even though, like, as a new therapist, like, that's what we kind of want to like, grow into, but, like, that's not where we're at and that's okay. Kind of like owning that.
And me as a new therapist, I'm an intern. If you caught that at the beginning, I'm the mswi.
I feel like we all struggle as new therapists to some degree in various ways to kind of step out of this, to drop the mask and stop pretending that we have all the answers to some in some way or another. Right. We kind of fit in there.
And so we. What I've done as a new therapist is really just like giving myself homework in session as well as my client. And I, I will say that, like, to them, with them, just like, okay, my homework is to research more about X topic. And your homework is to practice this coping skill that we just did together, you know, and just kind of making it known. Like, I'm working on it and so are you. Like, let's do this together.
[00:06:40] Speaker A: Right.
I think to that point of. With a lot of things like therapy or teaching, you just have to be session ahead of where they're at. Like in. In terms of skills, especially where you're starting out, the reality is you don't have a huge toolbox to draw from. You definitely have things in your toolbox that are great, that are like, foundational.
And like, if you have somebody that you're working with that you haven't worked with that presenting problem before, you might be adding additional tools into your toolbox every week before you meet with them, you know, especially if it's something pretty unique.
And that's okay.
Like, you. You won't have the answers for everything, but it's okay to like, work on that a little bit at a time. Instead of stressing your out yourself out about learning all the things and then getting overwhelmed and then not reading the things and then being like, oh my gosh, like, I didn't. Yeah, I didn't look at this thing that I said I would look at them. Look at it for them.
[00:07:43] Speaker B: Right? Yeah, I'm definitely the personality where it's like, I gotta learn all the things at once. Fire hose. And then I remember none of it.
It's like one thing at a time, like small steps, like, yeah, yeah.
[00:07:54] Speaker A: My. My pitfall is definitely the. I want to get trained in all the things.
[00:07:58] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, exactly.
[00:07:59] Speaker A: Yes. So reminding myself, okay, just one Step closer doesn't have to be a formal training as much as I'd love it to be.
[00:08:07] Speaker B: Right.
[00:08:07] Speaker A: Yeah.
Another thing that being in the therapist seat can bring up is something our boss talks about a lot, which is a hypocrisy phenomenon where we're helping our clients with all these things.
Or you might feel like, oh, I struggle with the same thing. How can I possibly help them with that? Or I'm telling them to do this thing that I'm not doing. How could I possibly tell them to journal when I don't journal or I don't journal consistently?
And I think the question goes back to, do you need to be doing everything to be an effective therapist for your clients, or do you just need to be doing things that are effective for you personally?
Like, maybe there's something that really helps you does not mean that that's going to help everybody or that you have to do every single coping skill to know how to teach it to somebody else and for that to be effective for them. And so again, going back fighting for fighting perfectionism, recognizing that shame or that, like, almost like cognitive dissonance, like, you have this idea that you need to be perfect as a therapist and you're not meeting that. Change that idea, throw it out. It's not helpful being able to recognize that in yourself.
[00:09:23] Speaker B: I think, honestly, with that, like, it's so easy to feel like, okay, but this intervention doesn't work for me, so I'm not going to be able to teach it very well, though it might work well for them. So, like, maybe, I don't know, maybe deep breathing doesn't work for you for, you know, like, for whatever reason, maybe it doesn't work for you. And then, like, they could be the magic, like, coping skill for this one client. But, like, right, you're, like, sitting there like, yeah, I don't know about this. I don't know, whatever it might be. So just feeling like that hypocrisy can feel like on the other side as well. Just like you can still teach it well without definitely having to work for you.
[00:10:06] Speaker A: Yeah. And also, like, just because deep breathing doesn't work for you doesn't mean you're not doing things to help yourself. Because I think that's a big part of, like, therapist hygiene, of having some good skills in your pocket to keep yourself doing well. But that doesn't mean that you have to be perfect all the time.
Yeah, great point.
[00:10:27] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:10:28] Speaker A: So going on to recognizing shame in clients, one of my. And maybe I've talked about this before, actually, maybe I haven't on the podcast, but I had a professor who would, when we were reviewing video in school, would turn off the sound to our videos, and he would say, just watch their body language.
Because we know, like, 80% of communication is like, what is it? Analogic? Dialogic. Analogic. Where it's non verbal, not words.
[00:11:02] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:11:02] Speaker A: And 20 is words.
[00:11:04] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:11:05] Speaker A: So we would turn it off and then say, okay, watch. Like, what are you seeing?
[00:11:11] Speaker B: Right.
[00:11:12] Speaker A: And that's still one of my favorite things to do is, like, gained that skill of. Okay. I'm picking up cues more from their body language as well as what they're telling me, because sometimes that will not always match up.
And I think that's also an indicator of, like, something's going on.
But some of the things that I've noticed or that I feel like are common for shame in body language is like, they start to, like, look away or look down.
Their whole, like, body just kind of slumps or, like, drops where their shoulders are kind of down.
People talk about it like a pit in their stomach or sometimes they get overwhelmed. So, like, almost like, very quickly seeing a lot of emotion come to the surface.
I mean, crying can be an indicator of pretty much any emotion that feels, like, overwhelming.
Wanting to run, wanting to hide, wanting to fight, wanting to flee. Kind of that stress response and anything else that you noticed for recognizing when a client is feeling shame.
[00:12:21] Speaker B: Yeah, I feel like kind of closing themselves off a little bit too. Like, you'll see they'll start, like, hiding themselves in some way, like.
[00:12:30] Speaker A: Oh, yeah.
[00:12:31] Speaker B: Especially when they're talking about, like, body image things. Like, I just, like, physically grab a pillow and, like, cover themselves. And they didn't even, like, realize I was definitely hiding, like, hiding myself.
[00:12:42] Speaker A: Right.
[00:12:43] Speaker B: You know, so just different ways to fight or flight. Yeah, when sitting down.
[00:12:49] Speaker A: Exactly. And you were even doing the motion of, like, just covering themselves with their arms or, like, crossing their arms or crossing their legs or.
I don't. I wouldn't even know how to describe that. But when they kind of put a hand on their knee, that's the opposite knee. So it almost like, covers their. Covers their whole body.
[00:13:08] Speaker B: Yes. Yeah.
[00:13:08] Speaker A: Yeah.
So what? So now, okay, if you're learning how to recognize shame, maybe they've identified shame. That's a good thing to point together is once you see something's going on, be like, what's going on for you?
And kind of letting them explore what emotions are coming up, recognizing shame in that and then going on to, okay, what are. What do you do with shame? What do you do when your client is like, I feel a lot of shame right now, especially that's the primary emotion. I feel like we get a lot of experience with, like, sadness and fear and worry. But what are some good interventions we can use once that. Once we recognize we're working with shame?
[00:13:51] Speaker B: Yeah. I think before jumping into interventions.
[00:13:54] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:13:55] Speaker B: Also thinking about, like, being introspective with ourselves in session as well, when we are realizing, okay, I'm sitting with this human across from me and like, maybe my thoughts are racing of, like, what do I even say to this? Or like, maybe your body language is.
[00:14:13] Speaker A: Like, you're also cross. Yeah. Closed off.
[00:14:17] Speaker B: Yeah. Like just realizing that in yourself and like, utilizing your own coping skills in session. Like, very often have I noticed different things about myself in session, sitting across from somebody, and I'm just like, I just take my own deep breath before I proceed with them, you know?
[00:14:34] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:14:34] Speaker B: So anyways.
[00:14:35] Speaker A: Absolutely. And I.
I think that goes back to our. Was that first sessions for spam Bowls episode we're talking about, especially in the beginning, like, being aware of yourself, because if you can regulate your own emotions, you can help them co regulate because the brain, the medial prefrontal cortex is online and like the limbic system and all the vagal nerves, like, all of your body is saying, let me see if this person is a safe person.
And if you're super closed off, distracted, if they think, if they, like, anxiousness is just radiating off of you and you're more, you know, anxious than they are feeling ashamed, that could send the signal that, you know, they don't want to talk about or they don't want to go into it, or they're making you uncomfortable.
[00:15:28] Speaker B: Right.
[00:15:28] Speaker A: So again, it's okay to feel anxious in session. Just recognize that kind of like, loosen up. Just remind yourself of the basics. I think that's a really good point. So once you're kind of in a spot where feeling good, you can co regulate with them. What are some good tips for that?
[00:15:43] Speaker B: Yeah. So one that we discussed in preparation for this podcast episode was rain. So the we love make it rains was love acronyms as therapists.
So we'll just kind of explain it a little bit. And even as I explain it honestly, maybe as the listener, just practicing, practice it as we go through this. So R is recognize. So this is identify and name what's happening in the present moment. And this is a lot of looking inward. It's not. It's less. Maybe it can be inclusive of, like, yeah, I Hear the fridge.
[00:16:20] Speaker A: I do hear the corner.
[00:16:23] Speaker B: But it's also. And mostly what are you feeling? What are you thinking? What are the sensations that are present in your body?
And then this really helps to tune in with the internal experience and just build awareness. There a is to allow. So after you identify the experience, after you do that with the client, the next is to allow their experience to be present without trying to change it.
This helps to facilitate an accepting and non judgmental response to what's going on in your body rather than reacting, getting pulled in too deeply, or trying to get rid of the experience. So this allows to just let it be as it is and then avoid kind of resisting their experience or labeling it as good or bad.
That's so often like, oh, but that's a bad feeling.
[00:17:16] Speaker A: And I feel like that's really key. For shame.
[00:17:19] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:17:20] Speaker A: I'm hard pressed to think of a single client I've had that's like, oh yeah, let me sit in this shame feeling. And it's pretty like intense. People do not like to feel shame. They want to avoid it. They want to shut it down.
And so I think the more you can allow somebody to experience that feeling and recognize that they're able to tolerate it and overcome it and shift their thinking or do something with it, the better.
That's my personal theory of change. So I love this step especially.
[00:17:56] Speaker B: Yeah, for sure. Because a lot of times I feel like it's so easy to sit in the feelings of that are good. Or sometimes it's even easier to sit in the feelings of like kind of having our own little pity party. Like we'd rather sit in that feeling than to say, oh yeah, but shame.
I want to get cozy here. That's never.
[00:18:15] Speaker A: No, even the idea of it. I'm like itchy.
[00:18:18] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah.
So that's a. So allow. And then the next part of rain is investigate. So in this step of rain, it brings curiosity to their experience and explore it further. So there's a lot of different thoughtful questions that you can bring up and you can ask yourself.
And it is. Here's a few. So what aspects of my experience are catching my attention the most?
What beliefs are underlying my current experience?
What recent experiences might be the source of this?
What is the most vulnerable part of me asking for oof.
And what do I need the most.
[00:19:02] Speaker A: Right now, given my current experience?
[00:19:05] Speaker B: So kind of just getting curious and then seeing like, what is it that I need with all these things that are running in my. In my body? Like, what is my body asking for? You know, and then the last part is nurture. The final step is an opportunity for the client to offer themselves self compassion in the midst of this present experience.
So we're not just going to sit in it.
We are just going to be able to say and apply in a variety of ways like comforting words and self talk and sometimes gentle movements or self touch that is putting a hand on the heart or using imagery of an embrace or even like hugging yourself. You know, just like that more somatic experience of just like comforting yourself in this moment once you identify what you need.
[00:19:53] Speaker A: Right. I love kind hand.
Yeah, the putting your hand on your heart, like imagining the all the kindness in the world is in your hand. Because sometimes people have a hard time generating that self love or kindness. And so imagining that something else can generate it for you and give that to you, I think can be really powerful.
Yeah, I love those especially because I feel like it empowers the client to identify what they need and then provide that for themselves.
I think another way to do that and this kind of implemented some ifs things of like, what is the most vulnerable part of me asking for. There's something else earlier that I was like, oh, that feels, that feels a little ifsy.
But I think if you're using ifs or if you want to use ifs, a good intervention for that would be unburdening. Obviously that's not like the first thing you do.
That's, you know, when you've been working with somebody and like helping that, that part share the burden with the self or kind of give the burden to the self or set the burden down or even just having the self stay and listen, like having the self be capable of bearing the things that this part that feels a lot of shame or the shame part is holding on to helps them realize. Okay, no, like people aren't going to like run and leave me or think I'm a horrible person. Even if that's just me.
Like, I can still think that I'm a good person.
I can still be there for myself. I can think the way that I want to think about myself. Even if I've done things that I, you know, I'm not proud of or wish I didn't change or things about me that I don't like yet.
[00:21:45] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:21:47] Speaker A: And the things I don't like yet kind of goes into like CBT reframes is another thing that I love to do.
Where again, you're helping them learn to differentiate. Okay. Maybe the words that they're saying are like full of shame. And maybe there are reframes that we can use that would maybe be more guilt focused. Like, let's say something happened that, like, is pretty serious. Or even if it's not, I feel like people have a hard time being like, no, I shouldn't feel bad about that at all. Like, people have a hard time with that.
The brain kind of resists it.
And so acknowledging the way that they feel like acknowledging, yeah. Like you did something that you wish you wouldn't have done, and that doesn't mean you're a bad person.
Right. So right there we have a couple of reframes of, okay, we're. We're reframing it from labeling yourself from a bad person to, okay, I did something I'm not proud of, but I'm not about. Or, and I'm not a bad person.
[00:22:47] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:22:48] Speaker A: I caught myself.
And kind of goes along with like, act acceptance and commitment therapy of, of accepting. Okay, this is how I feel. Accepting. Okay, I don't like this thing and I don't have to sit in this. I don't have to avoid this. I can help myself move through this feeling and get myself closer to where I want to be, closer to where my values are. And that's again, like, kind of going more towards the motivational aspect of learning from mistakes, having a growth mindset, which I feel like guilt is more, more geared towards, you know, if that, if that nagging feeling still going to be there. Let's, let's move it into something that's a little bit, you know, more functional for you right now than shaming yourself.
[00:23:40] Speaker B: Right. Yeah.
As you're talking, just using and is huge. Honestly, I feel like that's such a shift for so many people because. And even myself included, like, just like moving from. But where it's like, okay, we then forget about all the good things we just said.
[00:23:58] Speaker A: Right.
[00:23:58] Speaker B: Because we have a but there and we're going to focus on this bad thing that we said after.
[00:24:04] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:24:04] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:24:05] Speaker A: It's like so many times people are coming in, they're like, well, I think I'm, I think I'm a good person, but I, I do this, this, this, this.
[00:24:15] Speaker B: Right?
Yeah. And utilizing that as like a new therapist. It's like I may have said something stupid or maybe I had like a session that wasn't as great, not going.
[00:24:27] Speaker A: To happen, and I'm still a learning.
[00:24:30] Speaker B: And growing and good therapist. Right. Both can be true. Absolutely.
[00:24:34] Speaker A: A good therapist can make mistakes. And I would argue every good therapist has made mistakes.
[00:24:40] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:24:42] Speaker A: So just keeping that in mind, like, two things can coexist and, you know, recognizing that. Okay. One of the things that we want to coexist, whether that's for yourself or for your client, is that they're still a good person. That's very Carl Rogers Rogerian therapy of, like, unconditional positive regard. I will think that you are a good person.
Like, that's part of you being my client is I want the best for you. I. I think that even if you struggle or you struggle and you're still a good person. And I'm gonna think that, and I'm gonna help you put those dots together.
[00:25:22] Speaker B: Yeah.
So here we are with all these thoughts.
[00:25:27] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:25:27] Speaker B: We want you to, like, have the resources as well, to, like, you know, learn more about these different things and, like, see kind of where we got this from and just, like, dive into this more. Because as new therapists, I feel like speaking for myself. I'm just, like, anxiously grasping for anything and everything. Like, give me it all.
So here's more. So some of the things that we've utilized today. Simple practices website, going through, like, rain. They have really good outline there and, like, script that you can use with your clients or with yourself. Honestly.
Self compassion.
Kristin Neff. Amazing. That website has so many things.
Tara Brock as well. Her website. Is that how you say Brock?
I don't think it's.
That's how you spell it, though. It's a ch Rock, I think. So we'll include all these in our show notes, but act kind hand. Courtney kind of talked about that.
[00:26:22] Speaker A: I skipped ahead a little bit. I love kind hand.
[00:26:25] Speaker B: Yeah. And then that self hug as well. Like, we. We're just like. This is kind of just like the resource dump section.
Self hug. It's, you know, good to have that contact, even if it's just with, like, yourself. Just, like, giving yourself that firm pressure, grounding and comforting.
[00:26:41] Speaker A: So which I love, like, that's.
I love doing stuff that's very, like, physical, very engaging. But if you're doing other models, like, ifs an intervention that you can do is having the self give that part a gift.
Like, you know, it can be a hug. Like, having. Imagining the self give that part a hug or something that they think that that part would like. Or I've had clients give, like, a real gift where it's like, okay, yeah, this part wants my time, so I'm gonna give them 20 minutes just to think about this part or just to have the self sit with this part reframes. There's a lot of really Good resources on therapist aid.
Classic.
[00:27:30] Speaker B: Very classic.
[00:27:32] Speaker A: A lot of, like, identifying cognitive distortions, finding ways to untwist those, or another really easy one my clients respond really well to is, okay, you're telling yourself this.
What would your best friend say about you? What would, you know, somebody who cares about you say instead? And typically, they're like, they. That person would never say what I just said. I'm. Okay, well, what. What would they say? They're like, oh, that I'm, like, a good person. I'm funny, that I'm smart, that they, you know, I'm. I still have value. You know, even if. Blah, blah, blah. Okay. Say that to yourself. They're like, I have value.
I'm really smart.
[00:28:12] Speaker B: And they feel uncomfortable saying, and I feel uncomfortable.
[00:28:15] Speaker A: But the more that they do it, the more that their brain is going to connect those things together.
[00:28:20] Speaker B: This is definitely not an exhaustive list. There's so many more. And we're definitely not the experts on all of the above either. No. Yeah. But, like, we're just sharing. This is.
[00:28:29] Speaker A: This is just some help because I think often clients can feel overwhelmed when they feel shame. And so we don't want the. We don't want you guys to also feel overwhelmed when your client is experiencing shame. So just be okay with, you know, effective communication.
Effective communication, like being able to provide what you can provide. If you're recognizing, yeah, I maybe don't have all the. The resources or things that I want to be able to share. You can sit with them.
That's a huge intervention. You are the intervention.
And recognizing. Okay, I can also say, like, I want to learn more about this thing, or I want to. There's a. An intervention I think would work great for you.
I want to read more about it before we meet next time. And just modeling that there's still somebody who won't shun them or turn them away when they're experiencing those emotions. Because in a lot of times, that is the intervention. We call that, like, a corrective experience where somebody can say something that they feel really ashamed of.
And maybe instead of their dad or their parent or their sibling yelling at them or putting them down or maybe even, like, trying to exile them or kick them out of whatever community or group they're in, that won't happen with you.
That's going to be different this time. And I think that is honestly one of the most powerful things that you can provide for them.
[00:30:08] Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely.
And sometimes in the beginning, that feels like, oh, we can do. Sometimes that's okay.
[00:30:15] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:30:15] Speaker B: Because it's huge.
[00:30:16] Speaker A: It's a great skill to have. It's a great thing to build on. So I think that goes back to, it's okay.
Like, you'll be okay. You can use these things. And your clients, ultimately, they will be okay. Like, the learning that they can be okay feeling those intense emotions, that's kind of my theory of change, is helping people experience their emotions and realize, oh, that wasn't as bad as I thought it was.
[00:30:45] Speaker B: Right.
[00:30:46] Speaker A: Every time. Almost. Almost every time somebody sits with it, it feels better.
So.
[00:30:53] Speaker B: And they're like, I've been running from that for how long?
[00:30:55] Speaker A: Right? Yeah, it's a little bit of, like, trust the process with therapy sometimes.
[00:31:00] Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely. Okay. Well, thank you to all of our Zest for Therapy podcast listeners for joining us today.
If you have thoughts that you want to share or other resources that you're like, oh, this is also great. Like, we'd love to hear it, and I'm sure that other listeners would love to hear it. Just share that for sure on our. We've got our substack, and we'll leave a link to that in our description for this episode, and that way you can give us feedback and episode requests and be the first to know when new episodes come out.
So we'll see you next time.
